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Talk:The Great Chain (Economic Ideal)
This page is absolutely terrible. The writer completley missed the point. The "Great Chain" is the ongoing relationship people have with eachother to keep society functioning in a laissez-faire society. ''The whole point of Ryan's voluntarist philosophy is that government ''disrupts ''that chain. Government is not a part of it. The article is poorly written anyways, uses alot of jargon and extra sentances. It also discusses irrenlevent things, and its debatable weather it was nessecary in its own place. You could just give its own section in a larger article. 08:21, April 19, 2012 (UTC) :You're right. I hadn't read this article properly until you mentioned its problems. I'll get to it later today, but anyone who wishes to rewrite the article is encouraged to do so. --Willbachbakal 13:53, April 19, 2012 (UTC) ::I'm sorry but you seem to have no idea what you're talking about. Nowhere in the game are the issues you referred to discussed, there is no relevence in what you say. "Government is not part of the chain", Did you actually play the game, or did you just completely miss the entire subtext of Liberation vs Justice and Man vs Power. The Idea of Rapture was to be a place "free" of restraints economically, socially, scientifically and culturally. The conflict and the ultimate crucible of the game and indeed the series is the incompatibility of total freedom with and between humans, that some may always seek to undermine and exploit for their own good, a system that was built for their own good. By the end of Bioshock 1, Ryan must face his ultimate failure: his own hypocrisy. Having created Frank Fontaine, the ultimate ideal of Rapture, Ryan consequently seeks his destruction, he himself is incompatible with the freedom he professes, leading the chaos of humanity to a contradiction of ideals.What the chain does therefore represent, Is the connection of all beings to comprise a society of freedom to achieve a nation free from constraints, but inevitably the chain becomes a bond of hypocrisy imprisoning the citizens, quite literally, within their paradise, that it becomes a hell. ::—The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk • ) 00:00, 2012 May 1 (UTC). Please remember to sign your posts with ~~~~. :::I'm not sure what you are referring to with your comment that "nowhere in the game are the issues you referred to discussed." There is a great deal of documentation within the game about Andrew Ryan's "great chain" ideal in regards to government, society and economics. For example: :::*The Great Chain (Audio Diary) - "''there is something more powerful than each of us, a combination of our efforts, a Great Chain of industry that unites us. But it is only when we struggle in our own interest that the chain pulls society in the right direction. The chain is too powerful and too mysterious for any government to guide." :::*Great Chain Moves Slowly - "The Great Chain moves slowly, but with wisdom. It is our impatience that invites in the Parasite of big government. And once you've invited it in, it will never stop feeding on the body of the city." :::As for the "ultimate crucible" of the game being the "incompatibility of total freedom with and between humans", that's a very interesting theory. However, nothing in BioShock or mentioned by the developers of the first game specifically supports that idea. Sofia Lamb was big on altruism as an answer to the "incompatibility of total freedom with and between humans" problem that you mention, but that was her own personal philosophy and was more a theme of the second game than the first. :::Regardless, that theory has very little to do with this article. This article is only about Andrew Ryan's ideal of the great chain. It is not a thesis statement about the overarching themes of the entire series. ~'Gardimuer' [[User talk:Gardimuer|{ ʈalk }]] 02:57, May 1, 2012 (UTC) The Thinker / The Chain The Thinker isn't gene-based at all. From the thousands of thermionic valves (aka tubes, to Americans), it seems to be purely electronic. In real life it'd need a hell of a lot of cooling, and would only operate for minutes at a time before a valve blows. This is a problem real early valve-based computers had, and they had a fraction of the valves The Thinker had. Partly for that same reason. Fortunately a blown valve stops glowing, so it's easy to identify it. Assuming they're standard thermionic valves, and from the boxes around the place they seem to be, made from components from the surface, then the only thing different from other computers of the 1940s and 50s, is it's size. As I mentioned that wouldn't be practical in real life. If a tube lasts a thousand hours, and you have 10,000 of them, that's one going every 6 minutes. In real life, they would give them a burn-in before they were put into the computer, to catch any faulty ones. Even then it was a race against time to get a program run. Anyway... electronic, not genetic. On The Great Chain, the point of Rapture seems to be that Ryan's pure free market doesn't work when humans are involved. Some people are dishonest and will game the system and exploit people. The people best suited to a free market are pirates, smugglers, and other criminals. As well as heartless exploiters. The One Rule needed to ensure Rapture's continued safety was what made Fontaine rich through the smuggling it engendered. Ultimately Fontaine exemplified a free market better than Ryan did, so Ryan had to "make an exception", making his whole philosophy worthless in doing so. Perhaps that's why he was so pissed off, in his pre-death chat he seems a defeated man. Lamb was the opposite, socialism taken way further than any real-life example. To the point she wanted to eradicate freedom and individuality altogether, for a society of people who are innately forced to be selfless and help each other. She hated free will itself. And the moral of the story is, the true answer is somewhere in between. 19:24, July 13, 2015 (UTC) :As a note, it is stated in game that ADAM was used in some form in The Thinker. We just don't know in what way. --Solarmech (talk) 20:57, July 13, 2015 (UTC) ::That is correct, ADAM is employed in some way, but I can't remmber if it was ever stated in detail. ::As for you assessment of The Great Chain, that also seems correct. The whole of the BioShock series seems to be the criticism of absolutism with respect to popular philosophies. Andrew Ryan in particular is a critique of Ayn Rand's protagonists in her Objectionist writings (Howard Roark from The Fountainhead springs to mind). ::Like Roark, Ryan is intelligent, ambitious, meritorious, uncompromising, condescending, arrogant, egocentric, and scornful of anyone with common "human" emotions. He views "the working man" (AKA himself) as a God (though he's to good to call himself one) and looks upon anyone who can't live up to the rediculously high standards he sets for himself as weak. The only way for The Great Chain to work in Rapture is if A) all of the citizens were exactly like Ryan (unyielding to basic temptation, dignified even in the face ruin/starvation, satisfied simply with personal excellence over base desires like fame and exceptionalism) and B) if it were possible for everyone to stand at the top of society. ::PS, User:Testxyz is going to hate this thread, most likely. ::Unownshipper (talk) 02:26, July 14, 2015 (UTC) ::Well he tends to hate anything that isn't his own opinion, so it wouldn't be a surprise. I do think the OP is spot on with his idea that the BS games are supposed to show that beliefs taken to an extreme are usually a bad thing. The Great Chain is just an example of that. Ryan's theories will not work any more than Marx/Lamb's will. Or Comstock's or the Vox's. It's because they fail, or refuse to take into account the breadth of human nature. sm --Solarmech (talk) 14:59, July 14, 2015 (UTC) :::One thing (of many things) I do appreciate about the series is that it slowly reveals the dangers of zealotry. At first glance or first consideration, The Great Chain seems like a sound, even glamorous, idea. I see the Atrium of Welcome to Rapture is a visual representation of everything the philosophy stands for in a beautiful Art Deco package: ascending from the ashes to the glorious top while beating down anything in your way. It's only as you proceed through Rapture that the detrimental effects that the blindly executed philosophy creates that the true face of Objectivism emerges. :::Even Sofia Lamb's preaching (at first) seems just considering her rationale, and the sad history of Rapture. It's only as Subject Delta proceeds and see the hypocrisy, the city's current state, and the suffering caused even while Lamb is supposedly "saving" the people that it becomes clear her ideas are fully flawed. :::It would have been easy to just present the moral right off the bat: extremism bad. But that's too easy, too cliche. At least the games take their time and permit the opposing philosophy to explain the circumstances that might spur their creation before ultimately making their final judgement call. :::Unownshipper (talk) 17:28, July 14, 2015 (UTC) ::::We only know ADAM "allows the mainframe to process data at the speed of thought." I always figured they used ADAM to vehicle data. We know that genetic material is able to rewrite the genetic code of any being, but also that it can store memories (and that's part of Lamb's plan to create an "Utopian"). Perhaps it can be used like some kind of cable, and that would be needed to link The Thinker to other places outside Rapture and have the information transfer quickly. Pauolo (talk) 11:43, July 15, 2015 (UTC) ::I love when people start labeling anything THEY dont like as 'hate' (you are not unique, its a typical 'argument' method on the interwebz). Anyway, historically Ryan wasn't really that extreme in his philosophy, if you actually read what he says, he is denouncing False Altruism - people who profit off getting OTHER people to be altruistic - to get money or to control them - often it being FORCED onto people. Many people in America spread across the country to avoid that kind of interference. ::The world Ryan created was close to old America, as it was before the government busybodies grew in size and influence (to get 'power'). His anti-religion stance reflects the original 'Separation of Church and State' in America (notice his one law ISNT "if you practice religion in your own home you will be executed" and the game story is pretty vague about any further issues dealing with religion in HIS city). ::Lamb's philosophy of desiring to eliminate what basically is 'human nature' is so extreme as to be even beyond 'pure' communists who claim that you can completely eliminate government/the state in a modern civilization. :: 09:03, July 16, 2015 (UTC) ::: "Pure Free Market" :::What exactly is that and what does it have to do with Rapture? :::Claiming thats what Ryans city ran on is fallacious - its one of those "absolute" type of strawman arguments. :::Wouldnt a "Pure Free Market" have no regulation whatsoever? No laws dealing with contracts, expectations of 'pay in future' ???? (social pressure to pay debts/prevent theft still counts as a controlling mechanism). Money being accepted as a medium of exchange is still a type of regulation. You might argue 'pure' is just a phrase, but its still misapplied when what it is used to label is nowhere near the actual absolute meaning. :::SO lets discard that theoretical strawman of 'pure' and simply say that Ryans 'free market' was significantly less governmentally regulated (certainly than today and of post-FDR America), and still had basic laws enforced. Smugglers and thieves are NOT apparently allowed, and there is more reliance on "let the buyer beware" (which if anything is even MORE neccessary with todays government interference, incompetance and meddling). There is a competing 'free press' which can exert great peer pressure (a major regulatory mechanism when informed people can 'vote with their wallet'). Such things are not the formula for a 'pure free market'. :::Rapture's "Philosopher King" Ryan, if all else failed, could probably turn off the lights/heat/air on anyone who abused their freedom to the detriment of others rights. :::Cutting out the overhead of middlemen who only interfere CAN greatly increase productivity (all points Ryan makes in his various speachifying). Again Ryans philosophy is closer to what America was (europeans have always had baggage as leftovers of their monarchies, so might not understand American history - its not pure freedom on any account - but has alot less old class influences and more open opportunity). ::: 10:05, July 16, 2015 (UTC) - ::::Bio-Electronic Possibility - nerve cells do similar logic operations to tubes/transistors/ICs. ADAM can genetically manipulate tissue, so result : organic computer components (and miniaturized far from what was available 1940s - 50s (even in the 60s)). Artificial Intelligence requires a huge amount of processing ability, so miniaturization, mass production (mass circuitry for the complexity required...) would move computers towards that goal. Real nerve tissue can self-organize (in useful ways) so thats another component of achieving the computing scale needed to have 'The Thinker' - even if it was just a simulation of intelligence (not sapience). You can still mix in more conventional technologies (like copper wires and transistors) to interface outside of this 'organic computer'. ::::The funny thing about 'the Memories' (allegedly via DNA/RNA ) is that the organic brain of something like The Thinker COULD be the right mechansm to hold the holographic pattern of symbolic 'thinking' needed for that kind of ability, though transfering is a seperate issue. (The RNA/DNA memory idea was abandoned by sci-fi writers 30 years ago as unworkable, when they figured out that ~20000 genes in Human DNA isnt the equivalent to patterns stored in 50 trillion synapse links, nor can transfer to them.) :::: 09:24, July 16, 2015 (UTC) ::::Hi, OP again. ::::Aside from that one recording, the evidence against The Thinker using anything genetic is the lack of any tanks, or biological material or equipment. The Thinker spreads throughout Minerva's Den, and it's all electric cables and thermionic valves. Sure there MIGHT be a tank of chemicals somewhere, but I don't think so. ::::I think ADAM helped in the design of The Thinker. Reed was an enthusiastic brain-splicer, who overdid it just a little bit. ::::It's possible to do mathematics with tanks of DNA, but not standard computing. It's usefulness is it's parallelism, you can set some DNA with a particular problem, like the famous Travelling Salesman, then set billions of molecules to solve the problem by combining in a particular way. In practice it's much more like chemistry or biology than computing. The Thinker seems a standard electronic computer, just vast. Too vast to be possible, actually, using valves. The transistor, invented in 1947 but not commercialised til a little later, apparently didn't make it to Rapture's closed environment. Even the first transistor-based computers were simple, around 4K of memory in a company's mainframe, and processing power on the order of a pocket calculator. ::::I've resisted arguing contemporary politics here, because there's plenty of other Internet to do that on. I'll leave this to do it for me... ::::"And if you grow up in your parent's basement, then you are shaped by an environment where the fundamental constraints on what you want to do are shaped neither by scarcity nor malignance, but by genuine good intent. Your relatives probably don't want you to spend all day smoking pot and playing video games; in some cases they will over-estimate just how much of a bad thing that is. And even if they are right, it's not like anyone facing such hectoring is going to admit it.Pretty much every libertarian position can be understood in that frame of restrictive but benevolent authority being the root of all 'real' problems. It's a rare parent who literally tortures their kids, so torture is, at best, not a 'real' issue, not a priority. But many make them do stuff for their health, so mandatory health insurance is a big deal. Pretty much no parents kill their child with drones, many read their diaries. And so on. ::::So to libertarians, Bitcoin is like wages from a fast food job as opposed to an allowance; lets you buy what you want without someone else having a veto. Only money that doesn't judge you can be considered entirely yours..." ::::I'll also add, that it isn't the size of modern governments that's the problem, so much as the endemic, utter corruption. A good government helps everybody. Shame we don't have one. :::: 10:15, May 16, 2016 (UTC) ::::"Corruption", as in being a monopoly, and thus with human nature being what it is, the 'workers and management' both conspiring to get paid the most while doing the least amount of work, and squandering taxes mandated upon the populace. Thus becoming LARGER than they need to be to fulfil their proper function. Thus it IS the size, when a public sector solution is (can be) kept lean by competition, and thus leaving more resources for providing more advantage to the rest of the society. Likewise a 'good' government doesn't impose 'help' on people who dont want it (and avoiding the typical lazy 'one size fits all' solutions). :::: 23:43, May 17, 2016 (UTC) :::: "is an allegorical term coined by Andrew Ryan to describe the market and its evolution..." Article only refers to economics instead of also society/civilization. The general idea is that the 'able'/'achievers' in ANY endeavor would pull that part of society forward, and being linked, the whole moves forward with them. Art/Science/craftsmanship are ALL parts of 'enencumbered' Rapture in Ryan's Philosophy, that would be subject to this affect. Article needs to be changed to reflect the broader meaining of 'The Great Chain 00:57, July 19, 2015 (UTC)